Jordan Hall & Matthew Pirkowski

foreign hello and welcome this is active inference guest stream number 35.1 it's January 24th 2023. today we're here with Jordan Hall and Matthew burkowski we're going to have a very interesting discussion so thank you both for joining we will begin with a Hello introduction from Jordan Matthew will then set some context that will launch us into a dialogue that will take us on through so thanks again and Jordan please um since I lied in the Preamble so a little bit of introduction I'm noticing and this is I think part of the real interest of having a conversation with Matthew um uh is something like it would be nice I think and plausible for us to actually produce something new and useful in this 90-minute time span and I expect that we'll want to be using something like a a transparadigmatic method so we should be grabbing Concepts from a variety of different uh disciplines and frames and applying them in the area of inquiry and endeavoring to use that to actually identify something that is specific and perhaps hasn't been as articulated or deeply investigated at least to my awareness of course um before and so the end result hopefully will actually be worth worth actually having been done and to have been participated in that's probably I I mean I I hope that at least this recording in and of itself as an artifact will be something useful for a number of people who uh who might have been paying attention to the initial context and that we can bring together as we typically do uh the many types of frames that we've been exploring uh in between our conversations that are that are quite uh quite fertile and oftentimes barefooter in conversation so I'm always I always look forward to our conversation specifically for that reason um why we are here this morning or I guess what did catalyze this initially was a tweet that kind of randomly sent out the other day as I had a network of Concepts floating around in my head around uh emergence governance the Tendencies uh toward which that pattern flows and so the Tweet may be the best to just read it um so because that all forms of governance Trend toward parasitic corruption should be the first quote-unquote law of political quote-unquote science the only questions are how long before this becomes unsustainable does it also generate valuable byproducts and will it will it fail catastrophically or adaptively and so you know just the general frame for the conversation is something along the lines of as we move through the world together and attempt to identify points of tension uh in terms of the relationship between our communities and the embedding context in which they exist and attempt to navigate the world such that they can retain their ability to to function to cohere um to generate new solutions that help them mediate the tensions in the world that are constantly attempting to or constantly acting as a force against those structures as we come together to try to to to um to network ourselves such that we can function adaptively right to create systems for doing so and that's evolved you know quite a bit over time from uh informal systems at the tribal level at smaller social scales uh with respect to uh structures that had much greater coherence just as a function of the fact that everyone knew each other everyone was around one another uh in a daily context uh had a deep history in terms of their relational contextual knowledge of uh those interpersonal relations these lineages and so you didn't need a great deal of abstraction in the quote-unquote political domain you didn't need to conceptualize an abstract structure and then attempt to convince people that this was the legitimate structure to buy into as a stewardship mechanism for themselves but as we scaled up you know we started to introduce these sorts of abstractions um and and we are certainly in a time now where you know it's worth asking this question is as we create abstractions that are uh into which we pour our…